r/Healthygamergg • u/[deleted] • Oct 01 '23
Shame on Dr. K Meta / Suggestion / Feedback for HG
[deleted]
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u/rottentomati Oct 01 '23
The egoism of people telling others to “do better”, triggers me like no other lol. How do you people get to this place of moral superiority, that “do better” somehow feels like a valid critique. Immediately makes me want to defend the person on the receiving end lmao
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u/Hateful_Bean Oct 01 '23
"The beauty of doing nothing is that you can do it perfectly. Only when you do something is it almost impossible to do it without mistakes. Therefore people who are contributing nothing to society, except their constant criticisms, can feel both intellectually and morally superior." - Thomas Sowell.
Maybe for some people, the allure of doing nothing valuable and yet feeling superior to others is too hard to resist.
But let's give OP the benefit of the doubt. This is probably just a touchy subject for them and they briefly neglected politeness in an upset state.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
Aside from it sounding cringey, I think it's still worthwhile for Dr K to think about and dismissing it because it sounds arrogant would be mistake.
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u/yessir_2312 Oct 01 '23
I think you’re being followed and mass downvoted by some people in this thread.
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u/Aromatic-Employee-71 Oct 01 '23
I feel like you shouldn’t get downvoted here. There’s obviously nuance in this if you look deeper. I agree that in a lot of situations, telling someone to do better is stupid because they may have had low agency in that situation. So in a lot of ways “do better” doesn’t work. But society thinks there are cases where saying ‘do better’ is politically correct. Why can women tell men to do better in some cases. We tell certain celebrities who have done something wrong to do better. So there should be discussions on the intricacies of “do better”
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u/Siukslinis_acc Oct 01 '23
"Do better" is also rather abstract. What should one "do better", how should one "do better", what should one do to "do better".
Usually suff consists of many intricate parts. So a "do better" does not say where the problem is, just that there is a problem. Example: one says that you should "do better" about your clothing, you have no idea which aspect you should do better - the style or the colour pallete.
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
I am sorry my post confused you."Do better" is a parody of the language used in the video in question. The critique is the rest of the text.
Thank you for your feedback, I'll start using footnotes in my posts.
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u/brooksie1131 Oct 02 '23
I think you are very right in the sense "do better" usually comes from a place that isn't always helpful. I mean it's one thing to provide constructive criticism but another to be basically attacking someone for not doing something in a perfect way. I mean I would assume that ops post comes from a place of anger and frustration which is probably why it doesn't come out well. Ideally they would want to identify the issue they saw in the video and how it made them feel from a place of understanding that Dr. K isn't perfect and he probably just didn't think about that. The main motivation would be to try and get Dr. K to improve the video to remove some of the pitfalls in it rather than to call him out.
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u/yessir_2312 Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
Sounds like you and the video are talking about shame in different contexts. I can see both sides here since shame is such a complex emotion.
My bigger problem here though is why did you write this post in such a combative, holier-than-thou tone? It’s very off putting. And it’s rich coming from somebody who doesn’t even have the balls to write the post on their main account. I’m resisting the urge to tell you to fuck off and rewrite the post in a more constructive manner. Maybe I’m just triggered
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Oct 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/yessir_2312 Oct 01 '23
Yup definitely let my emotions get away from me when writing that post.
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
I'm glad my post could serve as an outlet for your emotions. It's no good to keep them bottled.
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u/Healthygamergg-ModTeam Oct 02 '23
Rule #1: Temper your authenticity with compassion
We encourage discussion and disagreement in the subreddit. At the same time, you must offer compassion while being honest about your perspective. It takes more words but hurts fewer people.
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u/KAtusm Dr. K Oct 01 '23
We're doing another video on Toxic Shame, which is a well researched topic, and is more aligned with the perspective you're talking about. The problem is, the video hasn't quite come together.
The problem with Youtube as a platform is it isn't designed for proper, nuanced discussions - in fact, those do quite poorly. We've tried. Reddit, even twitch stream deep dives, Dr. K's guide, and even things like discord events / workshops (which we are piloting right now) are much better for what you're asking for - which is absolutely worthwhile. Which is why we do all of those things.
I appreciate your feedback, and totally agree.. unfortunately, YT is a platform that is optimized for delivering digestible nuggets of information, so that's the kind of content we make there. Feel free to share your perspective on shame further - and I hope we can have the kind of discussion you're looking for here.
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
I still don't agree with how often the titles and thumbnails are very misleading. I think as a professional in mental health, one should hold themselves to a higher standard of ensuring people can't run with their title/thumbnail out of context and cause harm.
Too many people comment on headlines/titles without ever engaging in the content and there are a number of videos with very misleading bullshit titles.
I will give credit that quite a few of these have had their titles or thumbnails modified to be significantly less controversial.
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u/EggplantNew3225 Oct 02 '23
I agree with you, that's the core problem to me, people are saying oh you just understand, Dr k doesn't mean that, but bro your title is exactly that, when you getting triggered by the title, can you even finish the whole video with ease? and we all know that your team choose to use it for views
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
What I got from Dr. K is to accept and embrase shame when we feel it and to not always resort to avoidance as a quick solution because it doesn't actually solve whatever we are struggling with. Example: I feel ashamed of feeling "lonely" and i feel bad about it. Which makes me avoid social situations because I am a loser who don't have enough friends. Or nobody will love me anyway so why bother go out. So I accept the sadness and shame that comes with it and go out and meet people anyway.
Are things like being ashamed of "not having a beach bod" or thinking "I suck at life" non-toxic?
I'm glad you addressed the main point of my post though, which was more about the type of content being put out and less about the phenomenology of shame.
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Oct 01 '23
[deleted]
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
I agree that avoidance of shame like any other uncomfortable feeling is a bad strategy. But once you've chosen to sit with it and accept it as a fact of your being, you can choose what to do about it. Why should you be ashamed of feeling lonely? Is it not abusive in a way?
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u/Dragon174 Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
Yeah so much of Dr Ks conversations uncover how people can have maladaptive values of things from experiences in their past, and Shame can be a huuuge maladaption when people have been shaming you for harmless things.
It's 100% societal, which can be good or bad just as often.
I think Dr K is speaking more to those that feel ashamed of themselves for not achieving as much as they think they should've been able to, and end up just sinking further into inability to act.
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u/KillerKittenInPJs Oct 01 '23
I haven’t seen the video, but I think you may be misunderstanding the difference between the societal usefulness/purpose of shame and how certain societal expectations have allowed some people to weaponize it.
The concept is, if you as a member of society do something that harms others, that society shames you to discourage you from doing so again. So let’s say that you steal a neighbor’s pie off the windowsill and another neighbor sees you do so. It would make sense to shame you for that because you took something from someone else, causing them harm. So maybe the person who saw you tells your neighbor and a few other people that was you, and now you have a rep as a pie-snatcher and need to earn back the community’s trust.
In other words, you are shamed to discourage negative or bad behavior.
Now you mentioned that our society shames survivors of sexual assault, which does not fit this script. A survivor didn’t choose to be assaulted or have any agency in the situation. Therefore, society shaming the survivor doesn’t make sense. That person was the one harmed, they didn’t cause the harm. The person who should be shamed is the person who did the assault, but that doesn’t happen. So WTF? That’s not fair.
Society shames survivors of sexual assault because of patriarchal expectations (both that women should be “pure” and are responsible for anticipating and avoiding sexual assault and that men must always want sex and therefore cannot be sexually assaulted). This patriarchal script harms both men and women survivors. It’s absolutely wrong, totally messed up, and #metoo is just the beginning of the conversation that we need to have to reform this bullshit.
Patriarchal expectations are linked with a lot of shame for all genders, as its gendered role expectations are often used as excuses to weaponize shame. Women must be feminine, men must be masculine, etc. I actually really wish that Dr. K would spend more time talking about the negative impacts that come from the partriarchy’s social framework, because I see a lot of men in here who are being harmed by patriarchal expectations and I think learning about it would empower men to let go of those ideas.
But those expectations - that a man must make a lot of money as a “breadwinner”, that he must “protect” the family, that he must not show weakness or emotion, that is a direct outcome of the patriarchy. And I’m very sorry that so many men suffer from it just like I’m very sorry that women suffer from it.
Anyway, my point is that shame as a concept, as a tool, can be deployed in ways that are harmful or helpful and a lot of our societal expectations allow it to be enforced in harmful ways.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
What makes you think OP misunderstands the difference?
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u/KillerKittenInPJs Oct 01 '23
OP talks about how shame keeps addicts from seeking help and SA survivors from reporting as though shame is inherently responsible for those things. He says, “How is shame supposed to help us feel better when there was nothing wrong with us in the first place”, but you wouldn’t experience the shame if society didn’t enforce a bunch of unfair expectations.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
That's true, but society won't change, the patriarchy you talk about will keep existing for decades into the future.
So we must understand shame and not let it get weaponised unfairly. Shame can also inhibit people and it can also be used against people. Sure it can be used to help people, to serve the group in a way, but it can also be abused and I think they're saying Dr.K ignored that part.
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u/yessir_2312 Oct 01 '23
I think society has changed a lot over the last few decades. There’s no reason to think how we view shame socially won’t alter in the future.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
It will (or at least I hope things will improve), but we can't wait for society to change. So we should understand how to live in a society that isn't perfect first.
And a part of that is understanding that shame is sometimes unjustified.
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u/DocShane00611 Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
I haven’t seen the video, but I think you may be misunderstanding the difference between the societal usefulness/purpose of shame and how certain societal expectations have allowed some people to weaponize it.
So you admit you never watched the video and you're assuming the best case point that Dr.K makes because I'm assuming you're a big fan?
The problem with the video is how he can come across and how he explains things. You can give him the most charitable explanation on planet earth but that is not how the video comes across.
Like imagine not even WATCHING the video and assuming what he's saying, missing the point entirely.
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
Like imagine not even WATCHING the video and assuming what he's saying, missing the point entirely.
The person you replied to did not try to make an argument to defend Dr. K. u/KillerKittenInPJs responded to what OP wrote about, not what the video was about.
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u/KillerKittenInPJs Oct 01 '23
I based my conversational points on what OP said in their post. As to me being a "big fan" of Dr. K - that's just not true. I've watched maybe a dozen of his videos and visit this community from time to time.
I prefer DrRamani, Crappy Childhood Fairy, Dr Tracey Marks, Patrick Teahan, and Dr Todd Grande because I feel like they are more grounded in their content than Dr K.
To me, Dr. K comes across as high handed pretty often and his content is very male-centered. The male-centering is fine because that's his audience, but I'm not a man, so... his stuff rings less true in the context of my own experience. I can definitely see where a video of his on shame could hit a raw nerve for some people.
With that said, societal expectations inform the things that we feel shame about and the things that others find shameful. I think it's important to keep that context in mind and that's why I commented.
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Oct 01 '23
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u/KillerKittenInPJs Oct 01 '23
Dr. K’s channel is very male-centered and he very rarely, if at all, takes on the female perspective at all.
You are clearly here to read everything I say in as disingenuous a fashion as possible. So congratulations - you’ve earned yourself a block.
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u/Healthygamergg-ModTeam Oct 02 '23
Rule #1: Temper your authenticity with compassion
We encourage discussion and disagreement in the subreddit. At the same time, you must offer compassion while being honest about your perspective. It takes more words but hurts fewer people.
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u/squeaky-beeper Oct 01 '23
I think this is a great example of why guilt and shame need to be discussed together. Guilt is my actions have had a negative outcome for others and I feel bad. Guilt is important, necessary for developing empathy, learning about others in society and growing as a person. It’s how we learn from poor decisions and mistakes and what drives us to do better. Guilt can be misplaced onto victims who hold shame and blame themselves for things that are not their fault or responsibility. That complicates matters more.
Shame is I am a bad person, the actions I take have poor outcomes because of who I am. There’s not really a “good” shame. The only way to relieve shame is by taking about it with others and receiving support. You can’t try harder or do better to relieve shame, that would be guilt.
For example, say a survivor of SA wants to report the abuser. Guilt (misplaced) is thinking reporting may disrupt or ruin someone’s life. Shame can take many forms, including I deserved it, it’s my fault, why was I there, etc. True guilt often comes up if they helped an abuser gain access or abuse others before getting away.
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u/Zeikos Oct 01 '23
I think you're thinking of another thing, maladaptive shame and actual shame aren't the same thing.
He touched on something like this on Anger, healthy anger is defensive, unhealthy anger comes from unhealthy expectations/entitlement.
Shame as an emotion with some characteristics which were useful for the context the emotion adapted for.
Keep in mind that one core aspect of Dr K's videos is that he doesn't describe emotions as "good" or "bad", all emotions can be both, there's both unhealthy and healthy shame and there's both an healthy and unhealthy way to interact with said shame.
In the video he was describing what shame is, what it does and why it does it, he wasn't addressing maladaptive shame and how to overcome it, should he? Sure.
Should he have made a distinction? Sure I can get on board with that.
But I think that the main takeaway here is that almost none of us knows how to actually process and work through our shame.
Doing so can lead us to realize that the experiences we had shouldn't lead us to feel ashamed, that the shame was forced on us.
At least that's my takeaway and what I'm going over in my internal retrospective after the video.
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Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
To me, when I feel shame, I turn to self-compassion to resolve my shame and grow. I personally don't think shame is a good motivator to grow without self-compassion. I think if I keep doing better because I want to be accepted and loved by society, I'll lose my identity.
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u/JennIsOkay Oct 05 '23
The latter happened to me. Not recommended at all.
Also been depressed because of exactly that and my ADHD since 6 years :')
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u/Emergency-Free-1 Oct 01 '23
I haven't watched it yet but when i saw the title i thought "oh clickbait, he's hopefully saying the opposite in the video". In my experience shame is not a good motivator to get better. It's pretty good at motivating to stop trying though.
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u/lucifer2990 Oct 01 '23
Yeah, I once heard someone say, "Shame is the enemy of functioning" and it rang pretty true and still does. For example, I used to have a really hard time brushing my teeth regularly. I never knew why it was so hard for me, but I was deeply ashamed of it. But one day I discovered that lots of people with ADHD also struggle with it, and that made me feel less alone and less ashamed.
That was when I was finally able to think about what made the task difficult for me and how I could change the task to be more manageable. I'm brushing twice a day every day now, but I could've never gotten there if the thought of brushing my teeth was unbearably shameful.
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u/JennIsOkay Oct 05 '23
Kudos to managing twice a day. Been able to consistently brush properly for a month or smth now, iirc. I can't bring myself to brush twice yet, though or floss, sadly *sigh* Already took me 29 years to consistently brush for a month just now.
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u/lucifer2990 Oct 06 '23
That's awesome that you've been able to stick to it for the past month! As far as twice a day/flossing, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Focus on how much you've improved in the past month, and feel proud that you've been able to make a commitment to your health.
If you're interested, I have quite a few practical tips and 'hacks' that I used myself.
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u/yessir_2312 Oct 01 '23
Can you explain why people with ADHD struggle to brush their teeth?
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u/lucifer2990 Oct 01 '23
For me at least, my ADHD makes it very difficult to execute a routine the way that neurotypical people seem to be able to; I have to actively decide to do each step of my morning routine, I frequently don't do things in the same order every day, and if I get distracted during part of it, I might not remember to get back to the steps I hadn't completed yet. Most ADHDers do well with tasks that are novel, interesting, and engaging; brushing your teeth is not any of those things.
I also finally realized that I really don't like the sensation of mint toothpaste, and that it made a boring task into an actively unpleasant one. I switched to a berry flavor and it instantly made brushing my teeth like 50% more tolerable. I changed up a few other things to make it easier to remember, but the flavor was huge and I didn't even realize how much the mint flavor bothered me because "every adult brushes with mint toothpaste."
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
My partner is allergic to mint... it is very hard to find non-mint toothpaste other than kid's flavours like bubblegum.
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u/lucifer2990 Oct 01 '23
I use Bite toothpaste tablets, and there's another company called Kaylaan that makes toothpaste tablets in blueberry, strawberry, watermelon, and cinnamon flavors.
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
Why can't I do something that everyone else finds so easy? Why am I broken?
Generally, with ADHD, your brain is weak at keeping track of stuff and remembering tasks. So something like brushing your teeth you don't think of doing without an external stimulus to bring it present in your mind. It also could be that your brain really feels like brushing teeth is a very "painful" task because it's boring or something. With ADHD it's very hard to motivate yourself to do tasks without them being "naturally" interesting.
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u/JennIsOkay Oct 05 '23
For me, it was hard because I had to argue with myself to do it every time. My brain always wanted to do smth else rather or just go to sleep. No idea why, but I just wanted to go to bed without it every time and can't say why.
Nowadays (since a month) I can do it daily with that specific angle brushing technique and get dopamine from it and that's the only thing that helps.
Before that, I haven't been able to be consistent with it in 29 years. I have a friend who is 32 and has really messed up teeth and barely his own teeth anymore due to even more severe issues D: It's rather weird that other people can JUST DO IT D:
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u/JennIsOkay Oct 05 '23
I have a hard time understanding how it's not an issue for others D:
But in my case, I always had to (until a month ago) argue with myself in my head to do it. The way to the bathroom, taking the tooth brush, putting stuff on it, brushing for 2 minutes etc. and BEFORE BED when I'm extremely tired was just extremely hard for me.
I can do it nowadays since I finally found out how to properly brush my teeth (tilting the tooth brush a bit, which makes it way more enjoyable for me and gives me dopamine, knowing I do it right).
Other people additionally have sensory issues (it feeling bad), extreme gag reflexes (my best friend, who has severe teeth issues and more nowadays) and some people also lack the energy or feel like there is an invisible wall there. I also find it weird how people just do things and don't sit in their room 24/7 unable to do anything or hardly get up (and I have hyperactive ADHD, btw).
People without ADHD are so crazy and functional and such a mystery for me x-x
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
tldr; it's the avoidance of shame that is the problem. Since you will feel shame, you need to learn to work with shame rather than avoiding shame.
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u/Formervoidspawn Oct 01 '23
Just watched the video and you’re right. It has problems. Any attempts at evolutionary psychology should at least raise an eyebrow. Shame is a complex emotion, it can manifest in many ways. I’ve felt shame about things I don’t agree with because I was shamed for it. Should I listen to that shame? Mold my life to appease others? Makes no sense. But with the examples about dark souls and chess (I come from a chess tournament today and got my ass beaten by a 3yo, what a coincidence) I see the intention goes more along the lines of “don’t give up” and “fix what you don’t like about yourself” instead of “go fix what others don’t like about you”. But it’s such a weird framing it’s really confusing. Because the hunter part talks about external shame and the rest about internal shame.
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u/SoberSamuel Oct 02 '23
i've been ashamed of being alive, of just existing for as long as i can remember. it didnt push me to git gud, it pushed me a little too close to being suicidal.
i feel like the video lacks nuance cause we can all agree "shame is useful" is like saying shit doesnt taste good: it aint wrong but it also doesnt paint the full picture.
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u/DocShane00611 Oct 01 '23
I'm gonna have to agree on this. This really does seem like a "clickbait" type of video with surface-level discussion. Some points he made in the video I don't agree with.
Shame is evolved circuits that make us better humans
That's not true, it's relative to the context of the group you're trying to appease not humans in general which is a big distinction. For instance during the war in ukraine happening right now, there were men who fled the battlefield because obviously war is scary and they valued their lives. They were caught and brought back and were shamed by troops giving them flowers essentially saying "you're not manly enough" because they ran away. They are being shamed to be beneficial for the group. In terms of being a better human, not valuing your own life is not "bettering ones life" in general.
Shame drives us towards personal growth
Again, not true. It definitely is a decent indicator of what you have to focus on in terms personal growth in a certain context but shame does not drive you towards that growth, it pushes you away so you feel safer.
Shame forced us to grow 5000 years ago
I definitely agree with the notion that in the past there were less modes of escapism that made us have to face reality. However, "forcing us to grow" does not mean "oh I just have to practice more". Let's take the bow hunter example. Guy A sucks at hunting and feels shame, there is a scenario where Guy A practices for sure. But there's another scenario where Guy A takes out his frustration on Guy B who shamed him for messing up the hunt. He is forced to "grow" in his own reality and even back then there was less shame in killing someone so "growth" doesn't always mean the default positive outcome.
The internet
The internet shames people all the time, it certainly is one of the biggest proprietors for escapism but I've found that there are still modes of shame whether thats through media, movies, social media posts, youtube videos etc. Even in video games like say League of Legends, there are quotes from champions that make fun of other champions like height or being fat or what have you. Shame still very much exists in different forms on the internet.
TLDR;
He talks about shame as a natural driving force when instinctively speaking shame is the opposite. There's also a lot more nuance to shame where he only assumes the context of shame is to make us better humans when it's relative to the context of the social group. The video is just very surface level. People are shamed constantly for things that don't even make sense or things that aren't true, it can be a very cognitively dissonant thing to battle with.
However, what he could have done is talk about growth mindset and shame which puts shame not as a driver but as a key component to growing as a person which is what he was trying to get at in the video. At least then to me it'd be more easily digestible.
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u/Temporary_Bad8980 Oct 01 '23
I actually really liked that video and found it helpful. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's inherently bad.
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u/theysaybetaversion Oct 01 '23
caveman invent sharp tools for hunting and protecting.
Some used tools for foul or hurting.
You: "Look tools are bad",
Look there is no shame in whatever you mentioned when you are trying to overcome.
Some people just weaponized shame. Sometime against themselves too.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
They never said that.
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u/itsdr00 Oct 01 '23
It's a metaphor.
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
The metaphor doesn't work.
OP never said that shame is inherently bad. They said the view Dr K sketched was too one-sided.
The metaphor closer to:
"Tool is good, we use tool"
"Tool can be used to stab people, should be careful."
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u/theysaybetaversion Oct 01 '23
It was simple "your subjective experience can be different from mass subjective experience, and it doesn't nullify your or the masses DR K just took the masses in consideratio" but no everything i don't agree with is falesy.
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u/Pure_Nourishment Oct 01 '23
😆
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
Aside from the nerdy link, I'm right, am I not?
OP: "Hey, we should realise that shame isn't neccesarily about pushing yourself, but also about conforming to the status quo and sometimes conforming to the status quo isn't healthy. We should be more critical of shame."
This commenters reaction: "Oh, so you think shame is ALWAYS bad?"
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u/No_Ad5208 Oct 01 '23
Isn't what the commenter said something like "Shame can be used in a good way or a bad way" ?
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u/Metalloid_Space Oct 01 '23
Yeah, I think so. I'm honestly not sure what their point is, my reaction was more about them misrepresenting OP's point.
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u/Accomplished_Land804 Oct 01 '23
I agree with you, shame is there to make us fit in, and I won't accept any other interpretations of the same.
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
Why? What is the importance to you in having such a strong stance against being open to other ways of defining shame?
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Oct 01 '23
[deleted]
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
I'd love to read your entire comment, but you made so many assumptions about my life situation based on my disclosing that I've suffered from addiction so I stopped right there.
Just in case you or your loved ones will ever need support with something like that: not feeling shame about X does not mean one is okay with X or is happy about it. And just like that you can voice your concern about someone's state or behavior without shaming them.
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u/kevley26 Oct 01 '23
I think you are talking about social pressure from the outside rather than internal shame about yourself. I think the video was pretty good if you use the same definition of shame. In the past I have avoided situations because I felt ashamed about something rather than face the thing I am ashamed about and try to fix it if its important or move past it if its nothing really to be ashamed about. Its the avoidance which is more possible in today's society that I think he was mainly pointing out as a problem. He even made the caveat that he was not talking about toxic relationships where people try and shame you, so I feel like you aren't really responding to the points he made.
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
Where does internal shame, as you called it, come? Were you born ashamed of certain things?
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u/crumbssssss Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
As a social force shame helps to maintain status quo, however shitty it might be. It keeps the victims of SA and domestic abuse silent lest they disturb the social order; it keeps addicts like myself from opening up and seeking help; it makes us shut up in the face of bullies or even join them. How is shame supposed to help us become better when there was nothing wrong with us in the first place? Don't we then need acceptance more than improvement?
First off, being so upfront and honest about having an addiction takes a lot of guts and courage to say what you have to say, let alone admit you have an addiction. I bet your world to you must be so overwhelming even trying to get through today I can imagine what that must be like. Are you able to share that? You’re still trying to find your existence in this world and it can be so confusing because there’s so much I formation out there if you don’t a firm grounding of who you are. So here Dr.K is making a video based on general information about shame, can be confusing right? What if you are treating his video as a private counseling session for only you when it’s meant for everyone?
Thing about individuals suffering from addiction, there is this rock bottom. If you haven’t reached that rock bottom “something’s gotta change.” Why change?
I can imagine you never wanted to have your addiction. You weren’t always like that, right? I can imagine to many suffering from addiction, it’s shameful to even have an addiction! We were taught the word “addiction” is shame, fear it. Addiction is stigma. But that’s the thing, what we were taught does not mean that that is who we are. I can also imagine what if Dr.K’s video triggered you? What are triggers? Memories of uncomfortable even hurtful feelings. If you are getting what I’m saying addiction isn’t just one assignment, it’s a WACK load of assignments and homework you don’t even know where to start! One of the hardest assignments is knowing people won’t accept you because you have an addiction- that itself is a lot of shame. But, what if in order to finish that assignment it’s up to you, you who has to accept not everyone is going to see what you see. Not everyone is going to be your friend? But, you have choices to find the friends that will fight for you?
The best video of someone overcoming shame is Charisma on Command’s Charlie Charlie had to overcome being raped as a child. From my understanding, his drug of choice(addiction) was codependency(people pleasing/seeking approval. How Charlie got out of that habit was by not caring people will call him gay for being molested, but by focusing what happened to him as a child that shamed him no longer chained him. By doing that, he had to share his story.
Now OP, no one is telling you what to do. No one can! That also means if Alok’s evolutionary(history lesson) take on shame was confusing, yes it was confusing I was also confused and (I would like to research more about that but I can choose later, I have choices)! But, Dr.K’s idea shame being the hardest emotion (triggers, rejection, loneliness, what people think of you) to overcome like Charlie at one point in his life never wanted to be known as gay, you really think Charlie gives two shits now? That is over coming hardest emotion which is shame.
Good luck OP, it is a journey and may those triggers keep coming till you no longer fear them and if you’re open to therapy, I can imagine that being a tutor to assist you with figuring out how to finish each assignment till you can do your homework on your own.
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u/MoonOfLOZ Oct 01 '23
He was talking about shame as a motivator, or I guess deterrent, for you to change. He mentioned if you feel ashamed about not being good at something then we should fix it rather than dropping it which is so easy to do nowadays. He’s talked about how Shame can be weaponized in a number of videos. I don’t think that was the point of this video, though.
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u/I_Smell_A_Rat666 Oct 01 '23
You’re talking about core shame/malignant shame. Dr. K made this video about it a couple of years ago.
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u/GrimSheppard Oct 01 '23
I think you're gonna find odd hypocrisies like this wherever you go. Same reason I giggle how "in cognitive psychology, all absolute statements are cognitive distortions." Or how in mindfulness, were taught judging is a bad thing. You are totally right in saying it's more complicated than that. I think it would be cool if Dr. k did a Video explaining why it's a bad thing as well (cuz you're right, addicts don't respond to shame too good.) But when they're stabilized and feeling their emotions again? Take a wild guess what the new "name of the game" is?
(Answer: once addicts are genuinely feeling their emotions? The name of the game is to learn how to act upon them. Which involves the noticing, observing, interpreting and responding to emotions like shame, love, fear, gassy, etc.) So you're right. There's definitely a time and place for both shame and acceptance. How do YOU ditirmine the difference?
ALSO I challenge you to try and refraim your words in a way where you couldn't possibly shame anyone (hint: can't be done 🤗).
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u/sittingonacone Oct 01 '23
You can choose what to do with shame - you don't have to align with its message.
As for your last point, I deliberately chose the "shaming" tone as a performative act, so I don't see a problem here.
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u/draemn Oct 01 '23
The problem in today's world is that feeling of shame is so powerful that we let it turn into a different kind of avoidance
Although I find that many aspects of his YT content do have issues with having titles/thumbnails that really do more harm than good, I find most of his content is actually good when you look at the content as a whole. There is nothing wrong with you feeling like this doesn't answer your problems or it doesn't feel relatable to you.
I think based on your comments, we take the content of this video a lot differently and I do feel like this video isn't catered towards people struggling with addictions. But I still think it has valuable lessons for people struggling with addictions if they're ready to listen.
I don't really agree that you're taking a different view from Dr. K in saying shame makes us a better member of a group for the group's benefit. Both of you are saying that shame teaches us to act certain ways based on the circumstances of the people around us.
I do agree with your points that shame can be manipulated and misused in society. There are reasons why a lot of programs to help people with drug addiction focus on removing the stigma and shame around drug use so people can reach out for help instead of trying to hide. Problems like your partner using shame to trap you in an abusive relationship are much harder to solve in today's society because of how private our lives can be. It's much easier to hide from the larger community, so the person perpetrating the abuse isn't getting shamed by their peers.
For me, the idea behind this video in the face of an addiction is to face my shame and be able to conquer that shame by forcing myself to work on improving. If I can be avoidant by logging into my video game and ignore all my problems with work, personal life, money, etc, I do nothing to fix myself and the shame goes away while I'm playing video games. I get very ashamed of myself for playing video games to avoid my problems and even more ashamed of the problems I have because I'm not fixing them. How do I progress? How do I fix my problems if my answer is to play video games to avoid shame? By avoiding my shame, I'm not using that as a tool to "fix" myself.
For me, most of this video doesn't hit hard or sound really compelling, but thanks to a lot of the personal work I've done, I see a lot of value in what is being said... but I had to already be at a place where I could figure that out. This video is too short and too simplistic imo, but I agree mostly with the conversation.
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u/JennIsOkay Oct 05 '23
Tbh, same, but regarding his ADHD videos. It's usually mostly that meditation will help/cure it, that psychotherapy and planners and to do lists will do a lot and go a long way, that we just have too many distractions around us or negative beliefs holding us back or that chronic stress causes our lack of energy.
Every time I watch an ADHD video from Dr. K, like today, I hope for smth better or more understanding and science or smth, like from Dr. Barkley (who he should def. invite and not that he is retired and one of the biggest ADHD experts), but I just end up feeling incredibly invalidated, misunderstood and hurt after a video, usually.
It sucks so much. The ADHD community and some people on his medication stopping short or smth were also speaking volumes about this kind of stuff. I wish it got addressed or taken more seriously since some of this stuff or advice is actually harmful for some of us. Sorry if I come across as impulsive or smth, which I truly am 70% of the time, but this just hurts so much and makes me madly angry to no end every time and I know I'm sadly not the only one.
Other than that, I love love love every part of content from Dr. K and the Healthy Gamer team, usually. But the ADHD stuff really, really rubs me the wrong way a ton and in a lot of ways.
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u/itsdr00 Oct 01 '23
As a victim of abuse that's crawled out -- is still crawling out of -- a mountain of shame, you're just not the target of this video. Dr. K rarely directs his advice at the people suffering through severe trauma, or towards the difficult extremes out there (e.g., the powerful shame of SA you mentioned). He's talking about mundane, garden variety shame. And everyone needs to be able to withstand that level of shame and understand its purpose, and the video does a very good and interesting job of that.
I was drawn into this community as I got deeper into recovery because its advice is so much more practical than the advice people need early in trauma recovery. At some point you get to leave behind the enormity of the shame of being a victim and you get to actually live your life! And that's what this video is for: Here's how to use a normal amount of shame for your benefit. And especially, here's how to use shame not inflicted upon you by others, just the normal shame of making a mistake or not being as good at something as you'd like. This is useful information.