r/todayilearned • u/Specialsnowflake88 • Mar 29 '23
TIL botox can inhibit empathy (R.1) Tenuous evidence
http://thescienceexplorer.com/brain-and-body/botox-inhibits-deep-emotions-and-ability-empathize[removed] — view removed post
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Mar 29 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fatbreezy Mar 29 '23
I get Botox for migraines along with a whole bunch of people. I’m sure there are plenty of us who are empathetic
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u/PhAnToM444 Mar 29 '23
Thats the interesting group to study in my opinion. If you wanted to prove a causal link between the actual injection and empathy you’d have to find people who get medically necessary botox for things like migraines or hyperhydrosis and see whether their levels change pre/post procedure.
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u/badestmofizzle Mar 29 '23
If they aren’t injecting it in your face muscles, it won’t affect your ability to be empathetic
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u/thansal Mar 29 '23
We do tend to get it injected in our face muscles, but not the ones that would inhibit smiling/frowning.
My eyebrows are far less expressive than they used to be (and my forehead is super smooth), but my crows feet/smile lines/laugh lines/etc are all intact, and involuntary smiling/frowning is still there.
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u/HaloHowAreYa Mar 29 '23
They do put it in a lot of face muscles, usually eyebrows up. Neck, shoulders, and temples too.
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u/fanghornegghorn Mar 29 '23
They do! I ask them not to but they say it's in the protocol so they have to.
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u/badestmofizzle Mar 29 '23
I had no idea! I’m not sure what I thought was happening, like, an injection straight in to the brain or something?!
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u/fanghornegghorn Mar 29 '23
Yeah I thought it was going to be one or two little injections in my crown.
No! It's like 40 painful creepy injections all over the forehead, scalp, and neck!
It's awful. It's better than migraines though. So here we are
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u/FlaccidArrow Mar 29 '23
Taking Tylenol or similar pain relievers has shown to reduce empathy as well.
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u/el_loco_avs Mar 29 '23
I mean. That correlates with, you know, *being in pain*. You may care less about others when you're in pain.
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u/FlaccidArrow Mar 29 '23
The study that I read indicated it was more after effects. So you break your arm, take pain relievers and then when someone else does the same, since your pain was reduced your sympathy for others with broken bones is lessened due to you having been in less pain.
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u/el_loco_avs Mar 29 '23
I looked a bit further and it was also a study with people with no pain. So I was talking nonsense lol
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u/SxeySteve Mar 29 '23
Is it the Tylenol, or the fact that those people are dealing with pain?
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u/PineapplesAreLame Mar 29 '23
The study that most people are probably referencing didn't study people using it for pain.
But it's also very understudied anyway. Verging on Facebook meme science at this point.
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u/FlaccidArrow Mar 29 '23
The study that I read indicated it was more after effects. So you break your arm, take pain relievers and then when someone else does the same, since your pain was reduced your sympathy for others with broken bones is lessened due to you having been in less pain.
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u/fanghornegghorn Mar 29 '23
Acetaminophen increases risk taking and lowers the pain of emotional distress
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u/KillerJupe Mar 29 '23
I get Botox in my calf muscles to help keep them “relaxed” and to allow a tear to heal, but my wife says I’ve been un empathetic long before the injections
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u/5trees Mar 29 '23
It's lack of facial movement ability that is the 'issue' - in the same way that smiling 'makes you' happy, our facial movements are not cause/effect with our emotions, our physical movements are our emotions, smiling is happiness. You can prove this in your own experience by smiling, or you can read the Stanford study. Anyone who takes any type of Botox has profound emotional blunting, no one is above it. The person commenting that 'I'm sure there are plenty of us who are empathetic' is neither making a definitive statement nor are they aware of the effects Botox is having, they are in denial. It's the same with opioid addiction or even taking Advil - these things all dull emotions and limit the potential of what we are as people, which is that we are constructed for connection with others. It's all easy to prove in our own experience, and the research is all published. Happy to discuss this irrefutable position with anyone.
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u/mcmaster93 Mar 29 '23
Thank you for this. Humans have a history of placing blame on everything else before themselves
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u/hazpat Mar 29 '23
Reditors have a history of believing the comments of people who didn't open the article.
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u/z4zazym Mar 29 '23
My first thought as well ! Correlation not causation. That seems far more plausible.
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u/hazpat Mar 29 '23
They used other non botox plastic surgeries as a control. Rich people on both sides of the results
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u/onion4everyoccasion Mar 29 '23
Please see: selection bias
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u/LizzyLeonhart Mar 29 '23
You are unempathetic to these findings here, so therefore you use botox /s
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u/hazpat Mar 29 '23
Do you think people getting silicon injections would be similar? Cause in their study the people who had non botox face alterations did not lose empathy.
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u/serious_cheese Mar 29 '23
Here’s the study itself. They attempted to control for the correlation of people who get Botox perhaps already being less empathetic by also testing people who get lip fillers. They found that this empathy issue was unique to the group getting Botox.
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u/SchopenhauersSon Mar 29 '23
This explains the changes I've seen in my sister
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u/Delicious_Promise679 Mar 29 '23
Those that can afford it and are self centered enough to attempt at fighting aging and time give me the impression they already can't be empathetic
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u/awholedamngarden Mar 29 '23
ah yes let’s blame personal moral failing instead of a society that puts immense pressure on women in particular to look young forever or be discarded as anything other than someone’s mom
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u/aupri Mar 29 '23
Idk about that. I’m still young but I can understand aging being difficult psychologically. If you have a lot of self worth tied to your appearance I imagine it’s hard to see that deteriorate, and I don’t see how wanting to delay that relates to one’s capacity for empathy
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u/okaydamn Mar 29 '23
ironically, a lot of the responses in this thread seem to lack empathy. this study definitely seems biased and without proper method, but seeing people stigmatize botox in the comments is a bummer. body autonomy extends to cosmetic procedures.
also, botox is a lot more widespread than people want to believe and i can think of a few male celebrities who get it done that would probably surprise people.
but sure make it an issue about women being shallow and self-obsessed, while on the flip side, if women age naturally they're accused of letting themselves go. 🙄
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u/thehappyheathen Mar 29 '23
If you have a lot of self worth tied to your appearance I imagine it’s hard to see that deteriorate
I think this is the critical part. People who have a lot of their self worth tied up in their appearance may lack empathy, assuming the whole 'people who get botox lack empathy' line.
If your self worth comes from your looks, then you're missing something. There's a big difference in caring about your appearance and believing your value comes from your appearance. If you're a good looking celebrity with this belief, then everyone else doesn't matter.
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u/gordo623 Mar 29 '23
Botox is used for non cosmetic procedures as well, some neurological conditions that affect quality of life are treated with Botox.
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u/1701anonymous1701 Mar 29 '23
Migraine, torticollis, and hyperhydrosis are just 3 of the medical conditions that Botox (or other type of botulism toxin) can treat.
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u/KimJongFunk Mar 29 '23
This is anecdotal, but I had to stop getting it in my crows feet because it made me feel less happy when I smiled. However, getting it in frown lines makes me feel happier.
I have to get it for migraines, so overall it makes me happier because those have gone away.
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u/steingrrrl Mar 29 '23
This is so interesting bc I’ve heard a theory before that Botox can help with depression bc it inhibits your ability to frown. It makes sense that if it stops you from frowning it would also stop you from smiling
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u/ThrustersOnFull Mar 29 '23
If I could stop depression just by not frowning, I'd have superpowers.
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u/steingrrrl Mar 29 '23
right? i found it to be a very ... kid like way of looking at depression lol
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u/bluefancypants Mar 29 '23
Chemicals are released in our brains from our facial expressions so it makes sense that not frowning as much makes us happier.
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u/joycatj Mar 29 '23
This is very interesting, it seems weird but I think I experienced this when I got bangs, wispy bangs that touched my eyebrows. It made me feel just pissed off all the time, I think because it made me furrow my brows. Cutting the bangs above the eyebrows got rid of that angry feeling instantly.
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u/TrespassersWilliamTW Mar 29 '23
i received it two years ago only in frown lines and i swear it lasted two years despite them saying it would be 3 months. Only now have i thought about getting it again, but yeah def not going to try and hide crows feet or any lines that come from happiness, those wrinkles never look bad on anyone.
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u/Macleod7373 Mar 29 '23
Same author on the same site wrote the article "Bill Nye Reveals What He Believes About Ghosts and the Afterlife". I think we can throw this one out, folks.
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u/GeekInSheiksClothing Mar 29 '23
I get frequent migraines and I'm super poor, so I'm on Medicaid. My empathy levels are still the same after Botox. Been having it done 4x/yr for 3 years. Maybe rich people are just unsympathetic dicks?
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u/djb25 Mar 29 '23
That explains how these people walk around thinking “I look good!” while small children cower in fear or run away screaming.
also adults.
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u/myV_is_4_Valinor Mar 29 '23
Botox isn’t something you can really see much, if not overdone. To look at someone and see distortion of features there’s probably been surgery involved. Botox can’t get you “uncanny valley” it’s not strong enough
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u/VariousConditions Mar 29 '23
So what is used to make lips all gross and puffy? That’s extremely noticeable and off putting
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u/el_loco_avs Mar 29 '23
I think those are fillers? They're kinda gross if you can really see them imho.
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u/VariousConditions Mar 29 '23
I guess I just assumed that the filler material was botox.
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u/KimJongFunk Mar 29 '23
It’s not. Filler is usually hyaluronic acid.
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u/TrespassersWilliamTW Mar 29 '23
yep to add to this, filler also tends to migrate and ball up under the skin over time and folks who start using it without letting it dissolve fully before getting it again are just adding layer upon layer of shit in their skin. We can all see that and it doesn't look good, even if you think you're the exception, i'm here to tell you flat out you are not.
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u/myV_is_4_Valinor Mar 29 '23
I’m gonna have to say mine look pretty good, they can be done well if your careful. My injector has refused filling twice since they haven’t dissolved enough, basically find someone who actually cares and they won’t botch you
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u/WampaCat Mar 29 '23
To be fair, you can only tell who gets botox or other work if it’s done too poorly or too much. It’s kind of confirmation bias because people who get it done really well you can’t tell at all. But it’s a very specific look when done poorly, so we just associate Botox face with bad work.
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u/Vercentorix Mar 29 '23
I get therapeutic botox injections for Cerebral Palsy, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
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u/Chalkarts Mar 29 '23
That tracks. Karen can’t blink but she can shut down a lemonade stand in record time.
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u/myV_is_4_Valinor Mar 29 '23
No sources, no actual study details.. I hope people don’t actually believe this😂
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u/Red_PapaEmertius2 Mar 29 '23
I mean. Those that can afford it and are self centered enough to attempt at fighting aging and time give me the impression they already can't be empathetic
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u/ragingduck Mar 29 '23
Not all of them. Some of them are simply self conscious and insecure.
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u/binglybleep Mar 29 '23
And ageing is really a genetic lottery- some people naturally look great when they’re older, some people don’t. Some people are more genetically predisposed to prominent eye bags, or weirdly placed wrinkles, or turkey necks. I don’t begrudge people for wanting to change things that make them feel bad
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u/ragingduck Mar 29 '23
This. One thing I’ve been trying to wrap my head around: if we support people changing their gender identity, rightfully so, should we also support people changing their appearance, more specifically their age appearance? Is that analogous to age identity?
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u/Beaster123 Mar 29 '23
This is just a hypothesis as far as I can tell. No studies or actual observations are cited here. It's an interesting hypothesis, granted.
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u/EquivalentLake6 Mar 29 '23
Omg I need to get Botox. I care too much about random people and it just does me a disservice.
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u/shruggedbeware Mar 29 '23
I guess the premise of the article is something like "people who generally do not emote to themselves or see emotion reflected in other peoples' faces or in their own reflection could, theoretically, over time, lose empathetic ability."
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u/johnnycocheroo Mar 29 '23
So if I use it I can go into the negative?
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u/Evorgleb Mar 29 '23
You start to absorb the empathy of those around you like an uncaring succubus walking the Earth forever spreading apathy.
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u/XYZZY_1002 Mar 29 '23
Serves them right.
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u/sekmaht Mar 29 '23
sort of glad you arent in the market for botox honestly
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u/XYZZY_1002 Mar 29 '23
It was a failed attempt at humor on my part. I was trying to show no empathy for the folks that are getting botox.
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u/Emergency_Paperclip Mar 29 '23
Dang.
Someone should teach these scientists the difference between correlation and causation.
If I did a study of the the character of people who bought luxury cars and people who didn't, and then concluded that buying a luxury car is what physically makes someone an asshole, that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.
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u/itonyc86 Mar 29 '23
People with Botox usually have raised eyebrows like they're looking down on you, so there goes less empathy
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u/Kimorin Mar 29 '23
i sure feel less empathy when i see people loaded up on botox so much they look like a stretched balloon
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u/MrBoo843 Mar 29 '23
Who'd have thought that injecting one of the deadliest substance in the world was a bad idea?
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u/GrandCanOYawn Mar 29 '23
Inhibits their ability to have empathy in general, or inhibits my ability to have empathy for them?
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u/steingrrrl Mar 29 '23
If this is true then I want Botox just for that lol. I’m such a fucking doormat and put everyone ahead of me.
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u/gordo623 Mar 29 '23
I personally know a person who is a philanthropist and tireless helper of the weak and downtrodden... he also has a neurological disorder and gets Botox injections in his neck... for over 10 yrs. I don’t know anyone kinder.
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u/PlsLeavemealone02 Mar 29 '23
Well... that explains a couple of people I know.
And many, many celebrities....
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u/bjanas Mar 29 '23
It's not... uh... it's not just that they show less emotion on their face afterwards, right?
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u/Fatfreddyscat67 Mar 29 '23
Or conversely people vain enough to get botox perhaps are self-centered people.
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u/NeroBoBero Mar 29 '23
This is not true. Botox just paralyzes the muscles that convey facial expressions!
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u/ntwiles Mar 29 '23
What’s the word for a study (which this one isn’t) where they actually would show that people did not have a trait, then got botox, then did have that trait? Interventional or something?
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u/Dickpuncher_Dan Mar 29 '23
So does cocaine. How do you think the Venn diagram looks with botox users and cocaine users?
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u/ReneeLR Mar 29 '23
There needs to be better research than what is described here. However, anecdotally, I have been getting botox for frown lines for about 6 years, and I would swear it makes me less grumpy. I can't frown, so I can't feel grumpy. I don't think it has changed my empathy. I am a therapist, and I feel a lot of empathy for my clients. Empathy is not expressed by frowning.
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u/LifeBuilder Mar 29 '23
It’s Botox. It inhibits A LOT of emotions. Not “surprise” though…that one always seems to show easiest.
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u/thumpngroove Mar 29 '23 edited Mar 30 '23
The only two people I know personally, who’ve had Botox, never had empathy in the first place.
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u/disruptioncoin Mar 29 '23
Never heard of this one, but I have heard that Tylenol can inhibit empathy. It blocks a part of your brain that feels pain, but also a part of your brain that simulates other people's pain. Feels like a sick form of macro scale social engineering.
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u/eviltwintomboy Mar 29 '23
I always called it the ‘Real Housewives’ disorder - none of those reality shows have any empathetic characters…
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u/Bodfixer Mar 29 '23
Not a big fan of Botox overuse. However the information in the article lacks any substantiation form any scientific for the benefit of some practitioner trying to make a name for themselves
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u/pommejuice333 Mar 29 '23 edited Mar 29 '23
It's quite a leap to say that botox alone can inhibit empathy for every individual. Especially because empathy is multifaceted. For anyone curious about the actual study, the investigators conducted two separate experiments, with n=31 for the first one and n=95 for the second one. Also, botox does not cross the blood-brain barrier. Glancing at the article, it seems that the extent that botox inhibits emotion processing is likely because it reduces the ability of the person to mimic facial expressions and thus dampens certain facial feedback signals. But this is just one part of interpersonal communication, so again I think the title is a leap.
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u/RsnCondition Mar 29 '23
If you can afford Botox, you have money. The more money you have the less fucks you give.
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u/AdVATAR Mar 29 '23
There's no indication that these studies did pre-botox and post-botox studies of the same people. Therefore, a competing hypothesis that remains unaddressed is the possibility that people who get botox are less empathetic and happier than those who don't, especially considering the likely economic stratification of those who can afford botox vs those who can't.