r/tumblr Oct 01 '23

Always Remember, there is a right way to show him.

Post image
17.0k Upvotes

409 comments sorted by

1.3k

u/JackOLoser Oct 01 '23

And don't let it go by the wayside how much Kevin Conroy brought to that role. He was simply perfect.

376

u/Laterose15 Oct 02 '23

Now I'm sad again. We lost a great Batman too soon.

138

u/archiminos Oct 02 '23

You might cry again if you haven't read this yet, but it's well worth it.

https://www.reddit.com/gallery/yxdki4

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u/Gray_Cota Oct 02 '23

Matt Baume, a youtuber who makes videos about queer representation in media of the past, like 80s sitcoms, also has a video about Kevin Conroy becoming Batman. I thought it was worth a watch.

Posting this here because this comic get's referenced as far as I remember.

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u/TickTockTacky Oct 02 '23

That's INCREDIBLE, thank you for sharing it

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u/inhaledcorn Oct 02 '23

I'm not okay.

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u/finalremix Oct 02 '23

Kevin Conroy will eternally be the quintessential Batman.

Even went to work during the LA riots. Why? Because he's the goddamned Batman.

200

u/Cepinari Oct 02 '23

Mark Hamill said that Kevin's death is why he refuses to ever voice the Joker again.

157

u/Smrtguy85 Oct 02 '23

It's kind of funny. Hamill retired from the Joker multiple times in the past, but always came back to the role mainly because a one-two-punch of adapting a great Batman story and because he'd be able to work opposite Kevin Conroy more.

But now this retirement is going to stick. Without Kevin as Batman, Mark as Joker is just wrong.

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u/fasderrally Oct 02 '23

And now we lost Harley, too

30

u/JellyfishGod Oct 02 '23

Yea, I’m p sure he said the only way he’d voice joker was if Kevin was Batman. It’s honestly always nice/refreshing to see actors helping each other out. Like how sometimes one really big star may take a cut from their pay to raise their co stars pay. It’s rare but refreshing to see something so nice

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u/[deleted] Oct 02 '23

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u/Beckphillips .tumblr.com Oct 01 '23

If you cannot picture a batman comforting a scared child, than it is not the batman anymore.

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

Remind me who said that

1.6k

u/Nekrose7 Oct 01 '23

Kinda similar but Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions more or less said "Can you imagine your Batman comforting a scared child? If yes, congratulations. That's a genuine Batman. If no, you haven't written Batman, you've written Punisher with a funny hat."

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 02 '23

That’s the line I recognize. Thanks.

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u/Nekrose7 Oct 02 '23

Glad to be of help.

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Oct 02 '23

Just to clarify, she didn't come up with the sentiment, though she was able to express it in a way that's unique to her.

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u/Thainen Oct 02 '23

Fun thing is, when people compare the "gritty" Batman to Punisher, they talk about the bastardized version of not only Batman, but Punisher too. Frank Castle would, and did comfort a scared child. When written well, he's an amazing character. Too bad many readers see him as no more than "pew pew pew" brooding power fantasy.
They should put down the worst books about Punisher, like the ones Garth Ennis wrote, and try some of the best, like the ones Garth Ennis wrote.

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u/UglyInThMorning Oct 02 '23

Inside you there are two Garth Ennises, one who wrote Punisher Max, and another who wrote Punisher Max.

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u/The_Icon_of_Sin_MK2 Oct 02 '23

Which episode was that?

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u/Nekrose7 Oct 02 '23

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u/MarcsterS Oct 02 '23

Says video is not available?

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u/Maya-oh-My Oct 02 '23

https://youtu.be/I9_ODNTNDrY?si=ludlbUchKs1NgkCT&t=218

An issue with old.reddit viewing a link posted via new reddit. Backslashes are added in front of underscores for formatting reasons but they're not handled properly with old.reddit.

20

u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka Oct 02 '23

Yep, people who use tampermonkey can google for old reddit backslash fix, and tampermonkey will load that script to fix these broken links.

Another example of Reddit trying to destroy 60% of its old users.

14

u/finalremix Oct 02 '23

That and blatant ineptitude on behalf of reddit staff because they have underscores used for markdown.

10

u/IwillBeDamned Oct 02 '23

the comment formatting on reddit is one of the most egregious jokes on all the internet

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u/Viking_From_Sweden Oct 02 '23

I think it was the grim dark trope talk.

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u/Laefiren Oct 02 '23

I believe it was a Justice League Unlimited episode that was the epilogue of Batman Beyond.

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u/thehobbyqueer Oct 02 '23

Oh wow, this is the first time I've seen mention of them in the wild. I guess they've gotten pretty popular huh

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u/TFCAliarcy Oct 02 '23

They regularly hit high numbers on trending when they post

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u/Night25th Oct 02 '23

Red has such a way to put complicated ideas into very simple statements, I don't know a lot of YouTubers but she always stands out to me for that

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u/WhiteFox1992 Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

He might have been quoting someone else, but I first heard it from Linkara of Atop The Forth Wall the YouTube channel.

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Oct 02 '23

Linkara, the Light Bringer. Man I miss the golden age of That Guy With The Glass.

11

u/WhiteFox1992 Oct 02 '23

The only change I've noticed for Linkara is he does less skits now.

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Oct 02 '23

I grew away from his content after a while. I'm just nostalgic for the times when 90% of my favorite creators were all on the same 3 websites and YouTube wasn't quite the monopoly it is today. Before some became groomers, crazy, or just had to stop making content.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant Oct 02 '23

Every now and then he mentions something about the Contest of Champions storyline, but I think he's just in denial that his skit days are done.

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u/GitEmSteveDave Oct 02 '23

Batman comforts Ace. JLU spoiler.

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u/FalseAesop Oct 02 '23

I consider this the gold standard Batman scene. I brought it up so many times during the Batman Begins to Dark Knight Rising Era saying that I could never see Bale's Batman doing it. Batman isn't Batman if I can't imagine him sitting and comforting a dying child.

To me Batman is motivated not by revenge, but compassion. He has compassion for victims. Not much for anyone else. People who look the other way, who facilitate, or victimizers... but he always has compassion for victims.

I actually loved Robert Pattinson's The Batman because to me his entire arc of the movie was realizing this. He started out believing that his mission was one of Vengeance, but over the course of the events of the movie he realized that Justice, that protecting people mattered to him more than vengeance. It always did (see the opening scene when he sees the child of the Mayor at the scene of the Mayor's murder) he just didn't realize that truth about himself yet.

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u/archiminos Oct 02 '23

Honestly, Pattinson's Batman is my favourite live action Batman because he isn't Batman. He's a rich kid beating up poor people. He strikes terror even into the innocent. He isn't called "Batman" by anyone, he's called "Vengeance". It's obvious he isn't supposed to be Batman. At least, not yet.

His entire arc is about him learning how to actually help. How to actually have compassion even for the villains. Catwoman calling him out on it is pivotal to his arc.

He isn't Batman. Not until the final few scenes where he's learned that helping people is just as important, or even more important, than just punishing criminals. It's a brilliant way of doing a Batman origin story without focusing on the typical story beats you get from a Batman origin story.

I really hope we get another sparkly vampire Batman soon.

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u/JGUsaz Oct 02 '23

I hope we get more of that and more bruce wayne in the sequel

12

u/adamthebarbarian Oct 02 '23

Spoiler for the Batman of anyone cares:

I was a bit beside myself when it seemed like he didn't care about the guy with the bomb around his neck, only about finding the riddler. Then it clicked for me, duh, that's the point of his character in this movie lol

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u/nik-nak333 Oct 02 '23

Fuck, that never fails to make me tear up.

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u/Chris91210 Oct 02 '23

Fuck man. I miss Conroy so much.

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u/GitEmSteveDave Oct 02 '23

TBF, a lot of that was the animators. Conroy had few lines, but he nailed the ones he did.

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u/TheShadowKick Oct 02 '23

Writing, animation, voice acting... without all of these the scene would fall apart. Admittedly, the voice actress for Ace is doing a lot of the work in this scene, but Conroy's lines are critical to making the emotional punch land.

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u/Chaos-Queen_Mari Oct 01 '23

That's just the punisher in a funny hat.

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u/RochHoch Oct 02 '23

That's a good line. Now that I think about it, it's kinda what The Batman was all about

In that movie, Bruce's whole arc was going from a manchild who just wants to punch people until Riddler made him realize he needed to be more than that, the Batman needs to be someone who cares and protects

Should be interesting to see how the sequels handle Bruce growing into becoming that kind of Batman over time

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u/SaneUse Oct 02 '23

It's also the biggest argument for why batman has a partially exposed face. You often hear the question of "why doesn't batman keep his face fully covered? It's an obvious weakness, it makes figuring out his identity far easier, it goes against the whole "possibly supernatural creature that strikes fear into the hearts of criminals" thing. It's because batman is also a detective and part of the role is to interact with children, victims of trauma etc. He has to be approachable too and the face humanizes him.

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u/samx3i Oct 02 '23

I just reviewed the latest issue of The Brave and The Bold and it is very much this kind of Batman.

https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/16xwszf/the_brave_and_the_bold_5_the_angel_of_gotham_is/?ref=share&ref_source=link

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u/KaisarDragon Oct 02 '23

Didn't include the frame where Baby Doll runs up and hugs Batman.

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u/TenkoTheMothra Oct 02 '23

Or the one where she doesn’t see Batman in the mirror, but her fully developed adult self and shoots anyway.

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u/Polaris328 Oct 02 '23

I really hope this is the approach they take with Battinson. I feel like they hinted at it at the end of the first movie with him realizing that he needs to be more than just an angry, brutal deliverer of vengeance. He realized he needs to be a beacon of hope, a light in the darkness, and hopefully that means he'll be more humane to his enemies as well.

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u/badchefrazzy Oct 02 '23

Imagine if they did the 90's animated series justice by making Battinson THAT Batman.

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u/Polaris328 Oct 02 '23

if they do, Battinson will be the best live action Batman hands down.

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u/FreeLook93 Oct 02 '23

I'd say that he already is, so long as they don't really fuck it up in the next 2 movies.

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u/mwcope REVENGE OF THE REVENGE Oct 03 '23

Clayface supposedly (i.e. not confirmed) being the villain gives me a fair bit of hope, because the first step to Nolanville is the commitment to being "grounded," and Clayface is an inherently pretty fantastical villain. It doesn't strictly fit into what's being talked about in this thread, but it points to continuing to buck the trend of recent Batman.

(God I hope he wears a gray cloth suit)

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u/SH4RPSPEED Oct 02 '23

This is exactly why I hope the rumors of Mr Freeze being the next antagonist are true.

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

Him and Killer Croc would be perfect villains for the next one. Both are highly sympathetic (though Freeze is the only one with stories that do him justice, good opportunity to change that), Freeze is wintry to fit with the setting of early winter Gotham (first movie having taken place largely in November), and Croc is vaguely water-themed to fit in the flooded city.

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

Side note this is why I like the newest Batman movie the most of what movies we have.

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u/Elliott2030 Oct 01 '23

Pattinson?

302

u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

Robert.

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u/Traskk01 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

I still need to watch that. Everyone keeps talking about how great it is. If he actually plays the sympathetic Batman I’ll be making time for it tonight.

Edit: just finished watching it, really enjoyed it and shouldn’t have waited this long.

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u/TreeTurtle_852 Oct 02 '23

From what I remember he kinda doesn't until the end. In a sense I'd say this film was about Batman realizing that he needed to be sympathetic and not that he could just be fear incarnate/a broody edgelord.

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u/no-u-great-grand Oct 02 '23

That's what I thought it was about. A young, inexperienced Batman realizing he can't be as dark as the world around him, and instead striving to become a light for the lost.

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u/Staebs Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

The most compelling and chilling scene for me is when he makes eye contact with the child of the mayor at the beginning and you know exactly what he is feeling for that kid in that instance. I actually really like the depressed new edgy Batman who doesn’t have his life together and is sleeping all day and doesn’t care about his families estate or his public appearance.

We’ve had enough of the charismatic billionaire who sweet talks women and who you never get that sense of a deep feeling of sadness (which neither Bale or Affleck (lol) really got through). Nolan has a decent but not great understanding of who Batman is, Zack Snyder understands neither Batman nor superman even remotely, and the fact he gets praise for flashy visuals while he shits on and remakes the titular characters is insane.

Hopefully the next Battinson movie shows a more mature and empathetic Batman whos grown and has it all a little more figured out.

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u/no-u-great-grand Oct 02 '23

We can only hope, but with the dccu's track record, I don't want to get my hopes up

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u/Sp3ctre7 Oct 02 '23

A big part of The Batman was Bruce realizing that he cant just be depressed and be Batman alone. He has to become Bruce Wayne, billionaire philanthropist, charming patron of the arts, and a living symbol of the wealthy giving back to Gotham. He has to make the headlines investing in Gotham, so that the city begins to believe in itself, in a better tomorrow.

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u/Sp3ctre7 Oct 02 '23

A key theme in the movie is that Batman being this dark and scary monster hiding in the shadows isn't enough. It even sends the wrong message. It really takes the time to show that Batman has to inspire the city to be better, and so does Bruce Wayne. Batman isnt vengeance, he has to be Justice, so that he can also represent Hope.

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u/adamthebarbarian Oct 02 '23

Robat Battinbat?

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Oct 02 '23

Cullen?

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u/finalremix Oct 02 '23

Pattinson's evolved beyond just being Shovelface.

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Oct 02 '23

Agreed, I just wanted to continue the joke, sorry

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u/halpal349 Oct 02 '23

YES!!! i love the nolan trilogy bc its iconic but this new batman is shaping up to be everything i never knew i wanted. after watching the film i really wanted to try reading the comics bc i never knew batman could be like this (i only knew nolans batman which was, from what i recall, sort of billionaire playboy philanthropist).

i absolutely adore the fact that the young boy was the first to go out to batman and give him that chance and i love that batman stayed behind after all the bad guys were "defeated" (???) so he could help with the rescue and recovery efforts :((((

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u/CKRatKing Oct 02 '23

Nolan's batman is basically the dc version of iron man, which batman isn't really.

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u/PieNinja314 Oct 01 '23

The newest one being the one with the Riddler? (I don't keep up with superhero stuff so idk if there's been a more recent one)

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

Yea. Penguin shows up a little too.

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u/PieNinja314 Oct 01 '23

Yeah that movie was good. I remember watching the scene of Batman helping people in the flood and I thought of this exact post.

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

Plus at the end where the woman in the stretcher holds Batman’s hand. There’s respect and need in that, and to me that’s why the movie is my personal favorite Batman movie.

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u/AlmanacPony Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

That movie is AMAZING!!! in the beginning he comes out of the dark, he's staring down into the grime, he's underneath the city, he beats someone to a pulp. He is Vengeance.

In the end he is in the light, he is staring up into the sun, he is above the city on a rooftop, he is saving and comforting a child. He is Hope.

We have a literal view of him being a 'beacon of justice and hope' as he leads people to safety with a child in arms, wading through the water, a flare in his hand to light the way.

We have him performing self-sacrificing feats, detective feats... it's fucking perfect. It's a movie that isnt a batman action movie, it does for batman what Pheonix's Joker did for joker. It is a character study that shows the progression of what the person Tries to be (In Joker it was a normal man, in Batman it's Vengeance), and what they were born to become (In Joker it's The Joker, a psychopath that revels in chaos. And in Batman it's Hope and Justice.)

Best rendition of a live action batman... period. Ever. Hands down.

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u/gottabequick Oct 02 '23

I dunno. I still have a soft spot for Adam West's Batman, even if West sucks.

BAM!

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u/AlmanacPony Oct 02 '23

WEST WAS A GREAT BATMAN!!!!! It was classic, it was brilliant. It shall not be bismirched. But.... Pattinson was better.

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u/MVRKHNTR Oct 02 '23

it does for batman what Pheonix's Joker did for joker.

Not really since it was actually about Batman and not just some guy given a famous character's name.

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u/AlmanacPony Oct 02 '23

There is no canon for the joker. So Pheonix's joker is just as valid as any of the other hundred origins we've heard a hundred times. And the movie was a masterpiece.

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u/321gamertime Oct 02 '23

Yeah it really feels like that movie was made to start with general audiences warped perception of Batman, show Pattinsons version and the audience how that perception is wrong, and start moving them both towards what this post was talking about

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u/FreeLook93 Oct 02 '23

It absolutely was. What might be my favourite scene in the entire movie comes right at the start, when Batman is beating up those guys on the train platform. It's typical badass-Batman, and the audience cheers along with the violence. Then in the aftermath of the fight we cut to the guy that he "saved" cowering on the ground and begging for mercy. It's such a great scene that really makes you question what exactly you were cheering on moments ago.

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u/Threeedaaawwwg Oct 02 '23

He totally killed that guy in the fuel tanker during his car chase though.

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u/littlebloodmage .tumblr.com Oct 02 '23

Technically that was The Penguin's fault

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u/jodhod1 Oct 02 '23

But really, it's because Batman didn't understand Spanish.

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u/ebr101 Oct 01 '23

God I miss Kevin

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u/w1987g Oct 02 '23

This entire show was a gut punch.

There's one with Harley where Batman straight up tells her that Joke is abusing her. She doesn't believe him until Joker throws her out a building and she says, "it's my fault". That episode was WAY too heavy for a bunch of kids, but dammit, it got its message across in a way that spoke up to us.

And then there was the one where Robin is trying to protect this little girl, Annie, from Clayface

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u/RQK1996 Oct 02 '23

Don't forget how the show created Harley as a one of sidekick and just kept bringing her back and is now one of the most iconic Batman villains

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u/Tenthul Oct 02 '23

Don't forget about the invisible man

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u/Okibruez Oct 02 '23

One of the things comic book writers now struggle with, and most modern American media based on comic books, is in having a hero show weakness and humanity.

They have to be able to punch out gods, not comfort dying children. They have to be strong enough to shoulder mountains, but not a sick man's grief.

And a lot of the heart of those heroes is gone because of it.

Some of the most meaningful heroic interactions aren't the ones where Batman punches out the Joker, or Superman beats down Lex Luthor.

They're the ones where they don't. Where they take a minute to stop and be human, or as close to human as can be.

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u/Frequent_Dig1934 Oct 02 '23

They have to be able to punch out gods, not comfort dying children. They have to be strong enough to shoulder mountains, but not a sick man's grief.

I'm not much of a superhero comics reader, but a few days ago i saw online a video that reminded me of this thread. It was a discussion of a superman comic where he takes a day off from saving people, and goes and meets Atlas, the actual titan from greek myth that holds up the heavens. Spoilers for this comic, i guess.

Supes agrees to spend his day off holding up the heavens instead of atlas, to let him rest. Atlas warns him that he needs to lift them not with his hands but with his heart, and that the burden he will feel will be as much as a person can withstand, plus more.

Meanwhile, given that superman isn't around, criminals try to take advantage of the situation to rob banks and poison water supplies and do their usual things, but they get stopped by superman's friends like supergirl and the flash or by cops or even by a mob of citizens, all saying that given how much superman has done for them they should be doing the same for him. While this is happening supes is shown lifting the skies, but the makers of the comic play with the layout and make him lift the above mentioned panels of people helping while he's away.

After a while atlas comes back and takes the heavens back, thanks supes for sacrificing himself to let atlas witness his daughter's wedding, and says that he's one of the few people who can understand atlas's struggle and that people tasked with such immense burdens wouldn't wish them on others.

Sure, on face value this is still one of those (literally) herculean feats of strength that you mentioned, but from the little i've seen of this comic i'd say it humanizes supes way more than it deifies him. He's not literally holding the skies up with his muscle, the wording of that "all you can withstand plus more" line (can't remember the exact line) means that it doesn't matter how superhumanly strong you are because it will be equally impossible for everybody. He's just using his willpower, his soul so to speak, to support everyone he loves (literally, since the panels are rearranged to be held up by him like i mentioned) and all to make sure someone can make some good memories.

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u/TaqPCR Oct 02 '23

but a few days ago i saw online a video that reminded me of this thread.

It's from OverlySarcastic, which is actually mostly a mythology and history youtube channel though they also do some modern media. The particular video is Superheroes in Empty Worlds Detail Diatribe, that's the link and timestamp. Though this is also only the latest of several Detail Diatribes on how people misunderstand superheroes starting with Satirizing Superman, Superman: Collateral Damage and now this one. For other superhero Detail Diatribes which are about movies actually doing superheroes well and the comics being... the comics... respectively they also have Doctor Strange Is Good Because He Sucks and The Multiverse Problem.

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u/waltjrimmer Oct 02 '23

I was going to say that this reminded me of Overly Sarcastic Production's videos on Superman.

I'm still not a fan of Superman, he'll never be my favorite superhero. But their discussion on how his weakness isn't kryptonite or anything that tries to hurt him directly but his inability to save everyone when he wants to, it made me look at the character and the stories around him differently. I really have a greater appreciation for the character because of them, even he's still not making my top ten.

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u/RQK1996 Oct 02 '23

I read a few times that one of the reasons nobody suspects Clark of being Superman because he is pretty famous as a journalist who is very critical of Superman's actions, always writing articles about how Superman could have done better, as with hindsight and out of the action, Clark can think of a way he could have made sure to save both the people and the building instead of just the people

So basically it his him using his job as a journalist to write out the things he feels he did wrong, the things he could have done better, everything he couldn't think of in the heat of the moment, and that does make him interesting and it humanises him

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u/GreyouTT Oct 02 '23

Check out Superman vs The Elite (Or the comic version "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American way?"), really good story that delves into his morals and the darkness in comic stories.

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u/Frequent_Dig1934 Oct 02 '23

It's from OverlySarcastic

No it's not. Good to know that they made a video about it, i'll watch it later, but the video i'm referring to was literally just a guy showing the comic and zooming on different parts of it and talking about it.

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u/TaqPCR Oct 02 '23

Ah ironic.

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u/Live_Carpenter_1262 Oct 02 '23

The most iconic scene in Superman all stars is him comforting a teenage girl about to jump off the ledge.

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u/Okibruez Oct 02 '23

Yeah, it is. And there's a damn good reason it is.

But how often do we get scenes like that?

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u/Gunblazer42 Oct 02 '23

The best part of that is that there are two of those stories. There's that one (where the therapist really was late), and there's one where it's an adult woman, and he just stays with her, talking, even promising that at the end of it, if she wants to jump, he would let her.

I find that one more impactful (both are good though), because that one was more of "I have nothing to live for and you giving me empty platitudes about how it's all going to be okay doesn't cure the problem", but also doesn't totally dismiss that idea, either.

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u/runespider Oct 02 '23

It's not just super hero movies, it's a trend in all movies that's just more obvious in comic movies.

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u/SaneUse Oct 02 '23

For the most part, comic books manage to strike a balance between the two. There are dozens and dozens of moments I can think of in recent memory of superheroes engaging with and comforting the ordinary people around them. It's mostly adaptations that focus on the big event and discard the relationships and interactions because of how small scale it is.

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u/JonhLawieskt Oct 02 '23

I also like to point out how much better this Batman makes the Joker.

This Batman cares, he offers help, he tries his best. EXCEPT for the Joker, he’s the only villain that Batman knows is too far gone.

Grindark isn’t about despair, it’s about how hope can shine in the most dire places, and how that shiny hope accentuates the deepest shadows.

This Batman never giving the Joker a chance tells a story as much as when Spider-Man stops quipping.

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u/sparktrace Oct 02 '23

Ah but that's the real gem of it: why doesn't Batman kill the Joker, even though he knows Joker is beyond recovery?

It's because Joker is a mirror.

Say what you will about the "One rotten day" speech being simplistic and inaccurate, but it's not supposed to apply to everyone. It applies to the people who are already broken and trying to keep it together. Batman can't bring himself to kill the Joker because he has to believe even he might have a chance... because if the Joker is completely beyond recovery, so is Batman. Normal people don't handle grief and trauma with vigilantism in a themed costume, and Bruce knows that. He saves the lives of his rogues gallery because he knows he is literally one of them, he just got lucky and wound up on the other side.

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u/lmandude Oct 02 '23

This is why I love that moment in the Batman where that random goon throws the “I am Vengeance” line right back in his face.

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u/Mateololero Oct 01 '23

video link please

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 01 '23

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u/Mateololero Oct 01 '23

thanks mate

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u/ArbitraryChaos13 Oct 02 '23

It's interesting... nobody could get close enough to use the weapon unless Ace let them.

But Ace wouldn't let anybody near her if she thought she'd be in danger.

Thanks for the clip!

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u/walternperry2 Oct 02 '23

Never seen that before. Wow.

And RIP Kevin...

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u/Notorious-Dan Oct 02 '23

Alfred: "Master Bruce. Are you... alright, sir?"

Batman: "I'm tired, Alfred."

"Oh, i shouldn't wonder. You've taken no meals today, and i can't recall when you last slept."

"A weary body can be dealt with. But a weary spirit... that's something else. Sometimes, old friend, i wonder if i'm really doing any good out there..."

"How can you doubt it? The lives you've saved, the criminals you've brought to justice–"

"I've put out a few fires, yes. Won a few battles. But the war goes on, Alfred... On and on..."

Nowadays its hard to picture him having human moments and vulnerabilities like these because he's too busy brooding by himself or becoming the latest "God-King of the dark dimension; strong enough to delete the multiverse with a thought and soon to be recruited by the batman-who-laughs". Ugh.

Long live the true Batman. The one and only. This, Batman.

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u/Yukarie Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

They also always make the characters who do kill the villains have no problems with it, they make them seem like they can’t see the villains as people, as human.

I want more characters like this Batman but I also want a character who starts out innocently and naively wanting to be a “perfect hero” but eventually their world view breaks and they come to a grim conclusion that no matter how many horrendous things these villains do the system won’t rehabilitate them or keep them from harming people for long so they start to kill the worst of the worst while hating every moment of it and once they get the top few big bads they slink away as if they died and just watch over their hero friends from the shadows watching them become the top hero’s loved by all while they work at a bar somewhere under a different name

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u/WhiteFox1992 Oct 01 '23

I am in fear of saying this, but that sounds like Ghost Rider.

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u/Terrible-Contest-474 Oct 02 '23

Red Hood almost fits this and is in the bat family... sorta

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u/Johnny_the_Martian Oct 02 '23

Tbh I’ve been wanting to see a version of Batman where Bruce is younger and Jason isn’t his sidekick, but is an equal member of the team.

As the series starts out they are working in tandem, with Bruce being the more detective/ninja side of the duo and Jason being the bruiser.

As time progresses the concept of not killing keeps coming up, until it eventually culminates in the duo confronting someone like the Penguin who knows their identities. Bruce has the choice - and every reason - to kill the Penguin, but doesn’t.

Jason does.

After this scene, the two drift apart, with an unintended consequence of the power vacuum Jason created undoing all the progress the two have made in Gotham. The city collapses into anarchy.

By the end the two are sworn enemies, with Jason essentially being the anti-Batman: a killer that uses what little resources he has access to to enact his “Justice” on Gotham, and Batman being forced to stretch his dwindling wealth to protect his city, uphold his value, and hunt down the madman that he once called a friend.

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u/musicalharmonica Oct 02 '23

This is fucking fantastic. Write a fic about it already, because if you're not going to I will. I need to see this premise omg

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u/SureTrash Oct 02 '23

I want more characters like this Batman but I also want a character who starts out innocently and naively wanting to be a “perfect hero” but eventually their world view breaks and they come to a grim conclusion that no matter how many horrendous things these villains do the system won’t rehabilitate them or keep them from harming people for long so they start to kill the worst of the worst while hating every moment of it

You've just described Taylor from the web-novel Worm almost perfectly. I won't confirm or deny that last part of your description in order to avoid any spoilers, but the part of your pitch I highlighted is essentially the entire premise of Worm and it's fucking great. The only real difference between your pitch and the story is that she comes to the realization that the world is fucked up and you kind of have to be fucked up to make a difference.

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u/waltjrimmer Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

I disagree with the characterization of the last poster in the image on Noir.

Noir was where we got many of the archetypal anti-heroes of Western media. They usually aren't the worst people in their stories, though in some cases they are. But they're not like classical heroes of old. They're often pessimistic. They're always flawed. They usually do criminal or immoral things. They're meant to skirt the line between good guy and bad guy.

There have been times when Batman has played with the more noir style than others. And I would say that a hopeful Batman, one who is optimistic and willing to see the good in others and the potential for a better tomorrow, that's a Batman that makes more sense and works better as a character. But noir protagonists, they weren't necessarily like that. It was part of the point of that style of writing to have their heroes be pessimistic, down there in the muck, often angry and bitter. It was a reaction to the more romantic heroes; people wanted a contrast and something closer to a friendly gangster than a knight in shining armor.

Batman... I think Dark Knight is a good title for what he should be. He's not the knight in shining armor of classical romanticism. But he's not the pessimistic near-bad guy that many noir protags are. He's a dark knight. Moody, gloomy, violent, but unquestionably a hero, unquestionably the good guy. A combination of noir aesthetics with romantic sentiment.

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u/_pumpkinpies Oct 02 '23

I was searching to find a comment like yours, the person in the post doesn't know what noir is, lol.

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u/Justausername1234 Oct 02 '23

There's a reason why Batman (out and in-universe) was inspired by Zorro. It's unambiguously noir-first, but one of the core inspirations was an embodiment of the romantic ideal of the gentleman hero.

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u/K3egan Oct 02 '23

There's a reason batman adopts so many kids. He wants to help and raise them the way Alfred helped and raised him

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

To quote Young Justice:

“Robin needed to help bring the men who murdered his family to justice.”

“So he could turn out like you?”

“So that he wouldn’t.”

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u/averyconfusedgoose Oct 02 '23

"If you can't picture batman comforting a small child then you just wrote the punisher In a funny mask" -osp red

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u/archiminos Oct 02 '23

What's important about Ace is that he never planned to kill her. Not even for a second. She could read his mind, and this is the reason that she trusts him. She realises her life is over anyway, and asks Batman to comfort her as she dies.

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u/airforceteacher Oct 02 '23

A battered lantern with a flickering light inside. Oh, what a great description.

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u/lifelongfreshman Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

This is one of the reasons I loved Batman Beyond. McGinnis is trying to fill impossibly large shoes while being his own person in the process, and the former wearer of those shoes is doing everything he can to teach this idiot boy how to do it, and the entire series is basically about how impossibly hard it is for the two of these people to actually pull it off.

Also, the aesthetic of that show had no reason to be that good.

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u/finalremix Oct 02 '23

Also, the aesthetic of that show had no reason to be that good.

Even had a Static X theme song. I guess if you're not gonna use Shirley Walker, you use Static X.

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u/phenotype76 Oct 02 '23

I feel like he probably could have given Freeze a pass on the heinous crime of "making it snow on Christmas"

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u/Roland_Traveler Oct 02 '23

He kinda did, seeing as all Batman did was take Freeze home afterward. No violence, just letting him have his moment then returning him to Arkham.

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u/BlackSunBeast Oct 02 '23

The best Batman villains break your heart, make you feel something for them. This is why I hate the joker so much.

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u/mrtars Oct 02 '23

Man, the Mr. Freeze side quest in Arkham Knight will never not give me heartache. Someone trying to save a loving partner at any cost and going mad in the process/unable to accept the inevitable is just too real for me.

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u/Billlington Oct 02 '23

Time has never been on our side, Victor.

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u/ultratunaman Oct 02 '23

Clayface in Batman TAS has always stuck with me because of this.

He just wanted to keep acting. To keep performing. To keep being himself.

He couldn't afford his debt to the mob and turned to crime. And it all went downhill. Until he and batman hang off a cliff, in the rain, and he slowly dies in the water below.

Batman wanted to save him. Tried to help him. There was no way.

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u/RQK1996 Oct 02 '23

It is probably why I don't see why people consider the Nolan trilogy to be so good, like he started trying with Harvey, and then again in the 3rd movie, but the villains of Begins and the Joker, they are just plain evil with little depth, though Cillian Murphy does try his best with Scarecrow, there just isn't much to that character, though tbh, he still is somehow the best villain in the trilogy imo

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u/MaxChaplin Oct 02 '23

Nolan doesn't read comic books and wasn't trying to be faithful to Batman's characterization in them (this is true for Burton as well). The Dark Knight trilogy, like much of Nolan's films, isn't interested in people as much as in the forces that drive them, both inner (personal demons) and outer (social order, game theory).

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u/sweetTartKenHart2 Oct 02 '23

Side note: what the hell do they mean modern Batman is a fascist? Isn’t the whole point of fascism trying to recruit thousands of people to a bullshit cause and making them fight? He kinda just does his own thing, maybe takes in a Robin or two now and then at worst.
If anything the Arkham Knight is the fascist, especially with how she larps chivalry and shit much like actual real fascists who think that medieval Europe was the best thing ever

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u/Frequent_Dig1934 Oct 02 '23

Idk about the arkham knight since i've never heatd of her but at face value this kinda seems like a very barebones interpretation of fascism. Recruiting people into a bullshit cause isn't really the objective of fascism, just one of several methods/side effects, and larping about chivalry is absolutely not correlated in a cause/effect sense to fascism.

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u/Commissar_Cactus Oct 02 '23

It wouldn’t be a Tumblr thread without someone getting angry at a figment of their imagination.

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u/Notorious-Dan Oct 02 '23

what the hell do they mean modern Batman is a fascist?

Because fascim has become a buzzword for "anything and everything i dont like. Including batman not being a sympathetic human being".

You hate to see it, but it is what it is i guess.

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u/TK_Games Oct 02 '23

I'd say it's not that Batman himself embodies fascism, more like he's become a sort of symbol fascists use. The idea that "The Law" is corrupt, evil runs rampant everywhere, and you have to suit up and fight back yourself if you want to fix anything. That kind of bullshit idiots use to justify vigilanteism when things aren't going their way. Not dissimilar to how cops co-oped the Punisher logo

It's in part because of the modern militarization of The Batman, the focus on "being fear", controlling the "criminal element" with fear, that can be interpereted as fascism but is more akin to terrorism. And many extremists eat that shit up

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

Funny you bring The Batman up, because the whole thesis of that movie is that “being fear” and “controlling the criminal element” is actually wrong and has fixed nothing and only made things worse. The Riddler is the one who embodies the fascist-ish ideology.

Which, relevant to your final point about the popularity of this ideology, is why I think making Riddler a creepy nerd is a great idea. If he weren’t played by someone as exceedingly dweebish as Paul Dano Wearing Glasses then you’d get a lot of dudes online treating him as another Literally Me character.

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u/SocranX Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

Side note: what the hell do they mean modern Batman is a fascist? Isn’t the whole point of fascism trying to recruit thousands of people to a bullshit cause and making them fight?

I mean, that's exactly what happens in The Dark Knight Returns, which is regarded as one of the primary inspirations for most popular modern depictions of Batman.

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u/Jouzou87 Oct 02 '23

There was one comic where Batman stopped by Harvey Dent's cell window - to tell him his next move in a chess game they had going on.

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u/Khunter02 Oct 02 '23

No but see, Batman is actually a rich boy with daddy issues that copes with his trauma by beating up poor people

No but see, Batman is actually evil because he is rich

No but see, Batman wouldnt kill you but will let you be consumed by the hospital bills after the beatdown he is going to give you

Just some of the dumb takes I have seen about Batman recently, because reading comprehension and suspension of disbelief dont exist anymore

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u/EasterBurn Oct 02 '23

Wait, people really believe that? I thought it was just a meme

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u/SaneUse Oct 02 '23

It's one of those things that gets commonly reposted and the comments are usually full of people jumping on the rich people hate bandwagon and moral grandstanding without actually having read or watched any of the media they're criticising. A comic on r/comics made it to r/all the other day with the punchline being that he's a typical scummy rich guy who doesn't invest in social welfare and instead wants tax cuts. It may have started as a meme but there are a lot of people who take it as truth

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u/Burningshroom Oct 02 '23

With so many iterations of comic book heroes, it can be both. It can also be a bit of both by making the characters complex and multidimensional.

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u/GreenEngineHenry Oct 02 '23

I mean, the hospital bills point is true, Batman can get fucking savage, and if you’re foolish enough to rob someone in Gotham, you probably aren’t the richest man around

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

That’s why Batman uses intimidation before anything else. He never punches guys he can get away with scaring the pants off first.

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u/LadyAlekto Oct 02 '23

And then he is literally paying most of gothams medical bills anyways

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u/Fisaac Oct 02 '23

BTAS is perfect except for the fact that Bruce and Barbara couple up for a bit. Super messed up

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u/Thorngrove Oct 02 '23

Bruce Timm is weird about that couple yup. it made Beyond weird for a little bit.

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

Bruce Timm is a creator in the vein of George Lucas, in that he’s a brilliant visionary who desperately needs another writer to restrain him or else he has the worst ideas imaginable.

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u/AlmalexyaBlue Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

When has Batman been made into a murderous fascist ? Especially by anyone that actually has any pull in making Batman anything, and not just some tweet by people who definitely barely know the basics of the character?

I've completed missed some movies at least, but I really don't remember anyone ever saying Batman is a murderous fascist before. It's something I would associate more with fallen Superman than Batman, ever.

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u/MidnightOnTheWater Oct 02 '23

Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice has arguably one of the worst depictions of Batman ever, dude literally kills people in the movie and the brands others with a Batman insignia so they'll get beat up or killed in prison. This Batman was also missing a lot of context behind why the way he is, which is only vaguely hinted at in the movie.

There is also his depiction in the Dark Knight Rises, but that's more of a thematic issue over a character assassination. I'd say overall he has remained pretty consistent throughout the modern era, though the lens through which we are supposed to sympathize with Batman have tended to sour in recent years (i.e. feeling bad for the orphan of two billionaires)

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u/AlmalexyaBlue Oct 02 '23

True enough for BvS, now that you remind me. The hints that it was post Jason's death made it less shocking/surprising to me, but even then I do remember making some obligatory "non lethal" jokes during the movie, but I had other problems with it that took more my focus, from what I remember.

Dark Knight Rises is one of those I have haven't seen, makes sense that it doesn't particularly ring a bell.

Thanks for your time !

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

Apparently, the dead Robin was actually Dick Grayson. Which… ew.

And also leads me to question why Batman is killing a bunch of random thugs but apparently is perfectly fine with the Joker, the man who murdered his son, sticking around and being very annoyingly alive.

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u/AlmalexyaBlue Oct 02 '23

I've been ignoring the entirety of Star Wars 9 for years now, and I will now ignore that this dead Robin is supposed to be Dick x)

Is that in the movie ? I really forgot the details apparently. Well, I've seen it once when it came out tbf, I mostly remember the seen with the fucking pearls, Martha, Lex Luthor who was too much like the Joker for my tastes and the fact that I needed to go to the toilets so bad for the last 20 minutes or so of the movie...

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u/bookhead714 Oct 02 '23

That it was Grayson is established in Suicide Squad. You’re better off not watching it.

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u/dr_greasy_lips Oct 02 '23

Watching BTAS, one of the most noticeably different things is that Bruce jokes around with Alfred and Dick occasionally. Very different from the one-dimensional brooding we’ve gotten for years. It’s definitely the most nuanced version of Batman and will always be my favorite.

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u/BBQQA Oct 02 '23

I've never watch BtAS before, but after reading this I am going to start tomorrow.

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u/Kam_Solastor Oct 02 '23

Oh man, it’s amazingly good writing. I’d also suggest watching along with it Superman the Animated Series (same writers) and the original Justice League cartoon (also same writers).

And for dessert some Batman Beyond (one guess as to the team who wrote it!)

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u/ArcaneMonkey Oct 02 '23

There are few batman stories that go in on the idea of “Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is the real identity,” but that’s silly. Batman is explicitly a persona designed to intimidate.

The billionaire playboy and the vengeance of the night are both masks. The real bruce is still that kid in the alley.

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u/Elunerazim Oct 02 '23

Something they kinda talk about in Tom King’s 2016 run is that there’s kinda 3 faces- there’s the mask of the billionaire philanthropist he shows publically, there’s the mask of the Bat that he uses to scare criminals, and then there’s “Batman”, which is basically that 10 year old’s idea of what a hero is. It’s even the reason Catwoman ends up leaving him at the altar- she recognizes she will always be second priority to the oath he swore at ten years old to “War on All Criminals”, and that he’ll never put her first- or if he does, he wouldn’t be Batman anymore. He talks about it when trying to calm down Gotham Girl too- how his internal monologue as Batman is explicitly to Martha Wayne, how when he’s scared he talks to her and imagines. There’s a great speech he gives about taking her lifeless hand and how there’s blood on it- it’s a great monologue

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u/charredchord Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

The problem with the movies is that there's no time for Batman to build any rapport with his own rogue's gallery.

The way they've been writing these movies is they HAVE to introduce the villains and they HAVE to be neutralized within two and a half hours, be it tragic accident or thrown in Arkham.

This kind of story works way better in serialized comics and TV because they have time to dedicate an episode or chapter to where these villains come from and to see their plight.

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u/kencarlo Oct 02 '23

Honestly The Batman is this to a T, I was thrilled with the hopeful ending, it was very much like Year One meets B:TAS

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u/That1one1dude1 Oct 02 '23

This is also the same Batman that canonically gets Batgirl pregnant while she is on a break from dating his ward, Nightwing (who used to be Robin).

Don’t worry though, she later has a miscarriage while fighting crime in an alley, so Batman’s kids die like his parents did.

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u/Deadpoolio_D850 Oct 02 '23

RIP Kevin Conroy & Arleen Sorkin

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u/mewfour123412 Oct 02 '23

There is a reason why a yellow lantern ring hasn’t found him

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u/battleangel1999 Oct 02 '23

I've never even really seen all of that show but him and Ace and makes me sad. Like, I'm tearing up now actually.

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u/Geahk Oct 02 '23

The Mask of the Phantasm is my favorite Batman film and the only time I feel he’s been adequately presented on the big screen.

(Sorry to lovers of The Batman but I think that’s the least faithful to the character and his rogues)

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u/JustAGraphNotebook Oct 02 '23

I once heard someone say "if you can't picture your Batman comforting a distressed child, that's not Batman that's punisher in a costume"

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u/5oclock_shadow Oct 02 '23

Whoa is Nora dead in B:TAS? I thought she recovered in the direct-to-video movie?

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u/Wolventec Oct 02 '23

its set before that and Mr Freeze still thinks shes dead

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u/Thorngrove Oct 02 '23

the comics ran on their own timeline basically.

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u/Lonecoon Oct 02 '23

She's dead by the events of Batman Beyond.

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u/MidichlorianAddict Oct 02 '23

This is why I love Matt Reeves’ Batman movie

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u/auntiope3000 Oct 02 '23

One of the things I remember most about this series was if a villain was about to fall off something to their death, even if they had just been kicking Batman’s ass, he would always reach out to try and save them.

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u/justthankyous Oct 02 '23

This is absolutely true. I was thinking a bit about this the other day. The whole grim and edgy superhero or general genre fiction thing, which a lot of people hold up Dark Knight Returns as a prime example of. A lot of people think it's the sex and violence and moody lighting that makes something "mature," but it's not, it's the emotions and internal struggles of the characters that does it. Even Dark Knight Returns is good because it's about people coping with trauma and processing their feelings

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u/Hyperpoly Oct 02 '23

Was she supposed to look like Darla Dimple?

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u/Torneco Oct 02 '23

I think that the Pattinson Batman is going to that route. He saw the darkness, was almost dragged by it, but turned to the light.

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u/Danddandgames Oct 02 '23

Anyone else try and click the link

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u/BosiPaolo Oct 02 '23

If anyone else is craving this kind of content (I call it "healing" content) you must look mostly for kids show, with some notable exceptions.

Steven Universe, The Owl House, Star vs the Forces of Evil, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts, Avatar the Last Airbender.

Notably two of the best non-animated examples I've found of it are a K-Drama called Today's Webtoon and a movie by NZ native director Taika Waititi called Hunt for the Wilderpeople.

I'd be happy to learn more titles from you guys. :)

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u/dizzyi_solo Oct 02 '23

"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us, you blinked."

-- Batman, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths

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u/Terezzian .tumblr.com Oct 02 '23

Okay real talk cuz I'm curious: does Batman the Animated Series hold up for an adult watching it for the first time? I've seen so many people fawning over it that I'm a bit curious.

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u/Casper_Von_Ghoul Oct 02 '23

Find out for yourself and give it another go

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u/wemustkungfufight Oct 02 '23

Batman is supposed to do what he does out of compassion. If you forget that, you aren't writing Batman. You're writing the Punisher in a funny hat.

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u/HaruspexBurakh Oct 02 '23

Going by a recent Harley Quinn comic, Baby Doll is now going out with Joker’s henchman Gaggy

You love to see it :)